Forum Activity for @Sebastian

yup, take a photo of them to post if you're able to, pictures are always helpful

Before roasting

Thanks, I was reading the cocoa quality chart that Gap posted the link to. I will do the bean splitting. It looks very useful. I don't remember a lot of off colored beans after the chopping, but I will take the 100 bean challenge when I receive them. I assume this should be done before roasting, or does it matter?

Judging by the chart and my short memory, I would say if there is any problem, it's that the beans are over-fermented, or dried too slowly, possibly even moldy, but I can't wait to do the count.

Honduran beans can be very good - but there's more to just a 4 or 6 day fermentation - the quantity of beans in the fermentation impacts the output, if the fermentation is done in a box/sack/heap, if the fermentation is drained or not, if/how frequently the heap is turned (aerated), etc. By manipulating one or more of those variables, you can get very different flavors from the exact same beans.

I'd encourage you to cut 100 beans in half, and count how many are purple, how many are brown, how many are 'soft/squishy' inside, and how many are moldy. That'll tell you an awful lot about the fermentation and drying. What is it about the flavor of the beans you've currently got that you don't like? does it take acidic/sour? do they smell like vinegar? Depending on what it is you do'nd tlike about what you already have, going to a 6 day fermentation may actually make you like it even less!

I live in Honduras, where the cocoa is grown and sold at local markets. Most of what I've batched with so far is from the local market, but I just ordered a 100 lbs. sack from a neighbor who has a cocoa farm down in the lower altitudes. I asked him how long he ferments and he said four days. Until your reply I'd been trying to figure out how to ask for six day fermentation, a special order, without offending him. He is very proud of the fact that his beans and those of his neighboring cocoa farmers, are exported to Europe. I don't know if that is any sign of quality, or if they are just used to press out butter.

As far as what I want, at this point I'd be elated to have something as bland as Hershey's. The selling point here is not some special dark chocolate that might sell for $40/lb in the USA. The selling point will be that it is "good enough", and made in Honduras, with Honduran products; the sugar and cacao are both produced here. There are no national nor regional brands of chocolate here. So for now I'm not looking to make "artisan" quality stuff, I just want something that I would not mind molding into a bar and selling like that, even if I never intend on getting into the bar market. Until then, we are gaining a name for ourselves by selling confections, which help mask the flavor of a chocolate I'm not real proud of. Although to be honest, a local vendor has tasted one of our bars and liked it.

Here's a starting point for looking at the cut test Sebastian refers to for your beans

http://ccib.gov.tt/node/116

If only it were that simple, everyone who has a PhD in an general field would know the answer 8-) not to diminish your friend's field, but i get the impression he's a generalist, and not a specialist. It's a bit like going to your family doctor for specific advice on cardiomyopathy. There may be a general familiarity with the topic, but i'd not wager my life savings on the advice.

The bitterness could be a result of the fermentation or the roasting, but it also may have absolutely nothing to do with either. Chocolate mfr requires SUCH a holistic understanding of the process it's often difficult to attribute blame or success on any one single process step. And for what it's worth, the baking soda's actually a very, very good idea. I've used it a time or two myself.

Do you have any control over your bean sourcing and processing, or are you simply working with beans that you ordered? If the latter, i'm afraid it may be be exceptionally difficult for you to affect any change, depending on what's causing the problem. 4 days of fermenting may be ideal for some beans, and 6 days ideal for others. "Ideal" is also a pretty ambiguous term - which is idea, a red car or a blue car? Much of "ideal" is personal preference, so if you have examples of finished chocolates you find "ideal" that helps to pinpoint what's required to get there.

Which origin beans are you using, do you have any firsthand knowldge of how they're processed (vs the guy who sold them to me said they were xxx), have you cut 100 of them in half to look at their color, etc?

Often times defining what attributes you want before you start is helpful, vs starting and then saying 'it's not what i want, what can i change'...

After a year and a half of gear up and a dozen experimental batches, I still consider myself an extreme novice at chocolate making.

Although we've made some huge improvements and the confections we make with our chocolate are highly sought after in the region, I don't consider the chocolate we're making as bar quality. I would not mold up chocolate into bars and sell it in that manner.

My wife calls it "wang". I agree there is an off taste. It is borderline bitter. I've read research papers suggesting that the roasting is not quite right. I've spoken with a friend who has a Phd in agriculture and is helping small African farmers make their own bars. He was telling me that bitterness is a result of under-fermented cacao, which would be difficult for me to do anything about.

I've even tried to add some baking soda in order to offset any remaining acid in the chocolate, but there's still a bit of a bite to it after that. For you purists out there, please don't cast any stones about the soda. :-)

Anyone else have suggestions? I typically conch/grind the chocolate for 48 hours. I have started using a forced air roaster that I rent from a neighbor, though we might have taken it to too high of a temp (150C) on our first attempt.

If it's a fermentation issue I will have to stop buying cacao at the open market and try to find a producer who will set some aside to ferment just for us. I spoke with one producer who says he ferments four days. I am told that six days is ideal.

A few years ago I ran across a bulk truffle shipping method/container that reminded me of egg crates but I cannot find my link or reference and searches are getting me nowhere. I've got a rather large order that we're shipping out of the country and I'd rather ship it in this system if I can find it.

Does anyone know of a bulk chocolate shipping container that can effectively hold hundreds of truffles?

The container I'm remembering can hold 500 units per box. I have 800 to ship.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Hi all,

Could anyone suggest: Which cream truffle flavours can one pair with the following whiskeys?

1. (warm spicy with honey and rich fruit)

2. (sherry flavour with pear, creamy)

3. (apple and cinnamon)

CREAM TRUFFLES

lemon and ginger,

orange,

mint, green cardamom,

black cardamom,

lemon thyme

Thank you in advance.

Dima

Sebastian:

Thanks! If/when it gets to that stage I will reach out for some connections and introductions.

While Indonesia is the 3rd largest cocoa producing country in the world, it may not be the best in terms of getting a comprehensive cocoa understanding - one of the issues is that very, very, VERY few people in Indonesia ferment their beans. additionally, most cocoa is grown on the island of Sulawesi - although to be certain there is some grown on the other islands as well. bali's a pretty cool touristy spot to visit, but if you're looking for more ... authentic ... experiences i might point you to luwu utara in Sulawesi and visit rantepao for some very unique experiences. i'm sure i could connect you with some places that are fermenting there as well should you try to pull a trip together.

Bali sounds like a good destination but I also think the developed areas should not be left out in the chocolate area

Also Peru sounds good and Vietnam,India also is growing cocoa

To all ChocolateLife members:

I have made a connection with travel company that specializes in affinity group, philanthropic, and donor travel programs. They have a strong business working with company and organizations interested in providing their members one-of-a-kind travel programs with some sort of sustainability and/or corporate social responsibility component.

They are asking me to be a subject matter expert when it comes to offering programs around cacao and chocolate and sustainable production.

It occurs to me that these are travel opportunities that ChocolateLife members might like, and that we could be an affinity group and organize our own travel programs.

The question is, "Where would you like to go?"

The company works all over the world except in developed countries. So, no destinations in the US or Europe and some countries in SE Asia. But that leaves all of Central and South America, the Caribbean, East and West Africa, Indonesia (Bali!), and more.

So I'd like to hear from members where they would most like to go. Based on your input I will work with the company to select some destinations and work up a rough list of the experiences we could have while we're there.

And then I will invite ChocolateLife members to join me on fabulous journeys to learn about cacao and chocolate all over the world.

Here's to travel and adventure,
:: Clay

Thanks, Daniel. That is what I was thinking, so am a bit perplexed how well it works in practice.

He Glenn,

My enrober is definitely my most important piece of equipment. I have the Perfect 6 inch enrober. I have never seen the Chocovision enrober in action. I don't understand how it releases the chocolate. Most enrobers have a paper take off so that the enrobed pieces end up on a piece of paper. You then cut the paper and put it on a tray to fully crystallize. This chocovision is definitely the cheapest enrobing option I have seen. I wonder if there is a video of the machine in action?

I use Rev Delta machines for moulding chocolates and have always done this by hand (i.e., a ladle). I am considering introducing enrobed chocolates to my line, and came across the Chocovision enrober as one option. I'd love to hear anyone's experience with the skimmer, dispenser or enrober before investing in these. Thank you!

I've been recently searching for an affordable source for chocolate bar boxes. I have received a few quotes and the pricing seems really high (almost a dollar per box when buying 1000 pieces without any printing). The box style i'm looking for is like what Patric used to use, or like Ritual Chocolate style boxes. I've gone through the discussions here and called a few of the companies suggested, but most only do truffle style boxes.Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks, Sebastian- you basically told me everything I needed in your first two responses, it just had to knock around in my head a couple days before it clicked. I really appreciate your help!

sorry guys, have been travelling a bit and unable to respond. looks like you've got most of it worked out, if you have more questions let me know. Ash your idea is ok as long as y ou run it through a heat exchanger (ie you don't want the air 'touching' the finished product as it's likely that some of the air will be drawn out of the roaster before the kill has occurred, resulting in a very efficient salmonella distribution system...) run it through an enclosed heat exchanger to prevent that.

Correction to my above post: of course there's a way around recycling that air. I'll be venting both the storage closet and the roaster room to the exterior of the building. This will create negative pressure and not re-circulate "dirty" air.

To Ash below- now that I've redesigned the floor plan, I won't be using Sebastian's through the wall idea after all. Pity, I thought it was a cool one!

Hi there, Seems to be a great idea doing the through the wall roaster. Just out of curiosity as I am drawing up a floor plan as well, on a bit of a larger scale,

Would there be any benefit to trying to harness the heat of the roaster to add to the clean room to keep the oils in the grinders and conch a bit warmer? Rather than what some people do by adding a heat gun. Provided the grinders had there own room and where not in your cooler tempering area.

Then provided you didn't put a door between the dirty and clean room and instead whent through another room first would it be easy enough to test your roast without having to walk all the way around each time. A very roaster specific question I suppose.

PS- I just met with the owner, and it sounds like a variation on my plan will be workable. I think I'll go ahead and bring all walls to the ceiling. The roaster room includes the draw for air, so air will be pulled from adjacent rooms (clean room included) through the storage room, then through the roasting room and then into the filter. I suppose this creates something of a negative pressure storage room, if I draw out more air than I pull in? It also means drawing air from the storage room into the roaster room before it is drawn out again, but I'm not sure if there's a way around that.

Hi, Sebastian- yes, I apologize for not drawing doors, but all doorways (including the one from roasting to clean room) would have doors. And I don't see why I couldn't have the roaster discharge into the clean room (I gather that that encourages positive airflow outside the room?). There is a small vent into the roasting area, but the larger amount of air appears to flow from a larger vent into the clean room.

My overall space will be fully walled in from other rooms. Because the ceilings are very tall and sloping, I had heretofore thought I would wall in the bean storage space (I wish I had an exact figure, but I'd estimate the walls to be about 8 ft tall) but not add or reach a ceiling. I thought that would provide a barrier against small amounts of rising dust, but allow air flow into the closet from above, so the beans would not become too humid.

Likewise, I had envisioned another partial wall between the roasting room and clean room. I don't want to cut corners, as salmonella is something that terrifies me. It sounds like I should closely consider a floor to ceiling wall between the roasting and clean rooms- this would entirely enclose the roasting room and closet area. Again, I believe based on the size of the vents that there will be a greater amount of air flowing from the central AC into the clean than the roasting room.

Would it be idiotic not to fully enclose the storage closet (again, I'm not looking to cut corners; any stupid questions stem from astounding ignorance rather than willful disregard for safety)? Perhaps there's a way to bring air from the roasting room into the closet that I have not thought of, other than installing a new AC vent.

Thank you again for your help and patience- I know how busy you must be, and your quick responses are greatly appreciated. The commissary kitchen owner is going to submit final plans in the next day or so- I found out about this project only a few days ago, and it's moving very quickly.

Regards,

Carol

would you be able to close off the doorway from the 'clean room' to the roasting room, put a hole in the wall for your roaster to discharge into the clean room and seal it up tight, and configure the HVAC such that in your clean room there's more air blowing into it than in the roasting room (positive pressure to keep the dust out)?

Thank you, Sebastian. I was hoping you might see this and have the time to reply! Now that you mention it, I don't see why I couldn't add a second wall to fully segregate the raw bean work area. I've uploaded a basic floor plan that illustrates this (existing walls in black, future walls in gray).

I'll still need to periodically wheel bags of raw beans through a room with the potential to become a food prep area (although this is by no means a certainty), but they will at least be stored, unpacked and processed in a more fully segregated space.

Thank you again- for your reply both on this thread and on the many threads I've mooched off of quietly.

Best practice is to store raw beans separately from your finished goods, ideally under a negative pressure room (positive airflow outside the room), and have separate employees/clothes/traffic patterns/air handling systems from finished goods. Airborne dust will be an issue. i'm assuming you're going to have a very difficult time doing that in the space you have available. You might consider a scenario where your 'dirty' room is separated by a physical wall - one one side of the wall you've got your bean storage, roasting, and winnowing - with the discharge of the roaster going through the wall to your 'clean' side, where you mill and make your chocolate. an environmental monitoring program would also be considered best practice to ensure the controls you put in place are effective.

Hello, all! Ive found what seems in many ways an ideal space to begin making chocolate commercially (it is a 570 sq ft room in a building that includes a commissary kitchen, so I would have access to their 3-compartment sink for dishwashing, but otherwise use my space and equipment).

I am concerned about microbial contamination. I plan to have a closet built in my 570 sq ft space for bean storage, and to sort and roast beans immediately outside of the closet. But the location of my unit in relation to the delivery area means wheeling bags of cocoa beans on a dolly through a room that is currently empty but could be used for food prep in the future, and into my room. And I would be sorting and roasting beans at one end of the same room in which Ill refine and temper.

I suppose Ive had the idea that segregating raw bean storage, never using raw bean bowls/utensils to handle finished products, proper hand washing, etc. was the most important factor in avoiding cross contamination. I assumed somehow that salmonella was not likely to become air borne or crawl, and that direct contact was the biggest risk. Yet looking briefly at industry papers and seeing mention of beans stored in entirely separate buildings, people changing clothes before they move between rooms, etc.surely the average artisanal chocolate maker is not following all of these steps, but I am terrified of inadvertently failing to follow some important safety guideline.

I know salmonella has certainly been touched on in other threads, but is there a best practice for bean storage and handling I should be aware of? I would greatly appreciate anyones experience or thoughts on the space I have until today felt so confident about.

Thank you very much.

The Revere Group is pretty good too. glerup.com

These guys could probably do it for you: www.flairpackaging.com

If it needs to be a custom job, then be prepared to spend a few thousand dollars, at least.

good luck!

example attached

Hi,

I have been looking recently to purchase custom printed rolls ( I assume it is delivered in rolls ) wrapping paper for small chocolate bars, I am guessing the same rolls used in wrapping machines, I have attached a sample photo of what I want to have as a finished product.

Now I am not looking at producing huge runs but I want to have a well finished product, the whole process will be done manually and the products would be heat sealed manually.

Can someone point me towards a company, preferably in north america, that can produce such wrappers ?

thank you

I used to tempering chocolate many time was success, but recently have problem in tempering, I used "seeding method" to tempering and below is my process

300g dark chocolate, 100g for "seed"

step1: melt chocolate the temperature reach about 46C-48C (recommend temperature of chocolate brand)

step2: drop "seed"chocolate in melt chocolate to stirring bring down temperature to 31C-32C

step3: test the result

Why I wasn't success of result? what part have problem? Thank

Thank you Daniel. We will definitely try to get there and hope to meet Mr. Morel as well.

I would head straight to Christophe Morel! I have never been to his shop; however, I have studied with him. He is one of the best chocolatiers in North America for sure!

haha I thought so, but I wanted to ask anyway to be certain about it. One never knows thank you again.

As noted earlier you can certainly let it 'rest' in a conche if you'd like, but there's no benefit to doing so. As with anything i suppose, there's an awful lot of urban legend and anecdotal stuff out there, lots of strong beliefs that aren't supported by evidence, or are simply not true. i can't count the number of times someone has passionately stated something as fact simply because, to them, it was what they believe to be truth, and that belief translated to fact for them. they wholeheartedly *believe* they are right. Sadly, no matter how strongly i believe Santa Clause is real, it has no bearing on if he was actually real or not. i don't think anyone's putting misinformation out there intentionally or maliciously - it's simply that they often don't know what they don't know.

Brad -

We are talking something different here I think.

Here at Choklat we don't age it at all, and it's just as good day one out of the refiner as it is having sat on a shelf in a 50lb block for 2 months.

The question at hand is, in part, "Does aging affect chocolate and if so, in what way(s)?"

Are there any discernible changes that take place in your chocolate over the two months? I agree that those changes might be smaller in a large block of 25kg than they would be in a bar of 50 grams, but I have a lot of trouble believing that the two chocolates taste identical.

I have personally tasted bars from Friis Holm (made by Bonnat) and bars from Marco Colzani (C|Amaro outside of Milan in Cassago Brianza) where there were profound differences in the chocolates that could be attributed to aging. I tasted a new bar from Bryan Graham at Fruition a couple of weeks ago that was four days out of the conche. It was wildly interesting (the best thing I've tasted from the Maraon beans) but it had a distinct tannic structure and a "green" taste. Bryan gave me two bars and I am looking forward to tasting it anew, in about 2-3 weeks because I know it will be different.

But I do think it may have to do with style. Many chocolate makers like to make chocolates that don't have all the edges rounded off. They leave in acids and tannins because they think the resulting chocolates are more interesting. You don't I can make a pretty good case that your chocolate may change less via aging because of the way you roast and conche.

It is possible to over-age chocolate and in my experience, delicate top notes are the first to go.

They are all different chocolates, one is not necessarily better than another - they appeal to different consumers.

So no, I don't think aging is a gimmick. Letting it "rest" in the conche for 24 hours and attributing some magic benefits to that rest, is.

thank you !